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Old 08-20-2007, 02:18 AM   #41
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erik & Anne:
--snip--
Its better now, but still overheats.

How do we check what "mode" our Allison is running in (and how do we change it)?

Anne & Erik </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi and welcome to the forum!

I don't think from a Cummins perspective the engine "overheats" until there is a code set in the engine electronic controller. The Frieghtliner info center will report "overheating" or high temp which I would only regard as a heads-up to get your engine RPM up to 2,000 and the temp down.

The mode switch on our Allison keypad has a little red LED right by it and when the light is on, there is another shift program selected. It will shift at a lower RPM which is useful for economy driving around town. We rarely use anything but the standard shift program - it's too much bother and doesn't really save that much fuel. On the highway, I never use the economy mode because I want the engine RPM to be a little higher when climbing grades.
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Old 08-20-2007, 05:12 AM   #42
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimandsue60:
Thanks for the response John. The people with the spartan chassis with the same engine/transmison don't seem to have heating issues.

I have the downshifting figured out and can keep it below 217 even on the steepest grades. It seems that if a car can be built to just drive without monitoring gauges it would be a bit easier. A slightly larger radiator with an unobstructed air flow would solve the problem. I wonder it this heat situation has something to do with the new rear radiator in the 08 Vectra/tour, Horizon/Ellipse?

Jim </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's true about Spartan not having that issue. The difference is in the way Freightliner designed the cooling package on the XC chassis. FL uses a 1,050 sq in radiator that is aligned with the charge air cooler and oil cooler so that the radiator receives pre-heated air from the CAC. This isn't the best for cooling. Spartan uses a 1,326 sq in radiator that has the CAC and oil cooler vertically stacked so that each unit receives cool fresh air. FL had a few service campaigns on my cooling system but all they were was a few airflow baffles and mods that tried to improve airflow, when the root of the problem was a too small cooling system that was laid out horizontally instead of vertically so nothing really came of it.

On my 2004 Bus/Freightliner I had overheating issues in the mountains. The temps would regularly climb to 220 degrees when the warning light would come on. I found that if I geared down manually to keep the water pump revs as high and the percent engine load low I could minimize the temperature increase. Many times this meant I had to go slower than the ISL wanted to go but it did get me over the really long and steep grades. I also found that by keeping the engine revs up on the downside of the grade it would rapidly cool down and reset itself for the next climb.

Basically, it was manageable but you had to pay close attention and use manual transmission control. You also need to keep the cooling system in tip-top condition. As cooling systems age they become less efficient. When my Bus was new it wasn't that picky but at 3 years there was a noticeable difference.

We took the 42' Bus on a Spartan on many of those same grades this summer. On those same grades, with a coach that weighs close to 10K more I was able to let the Allison shift by itself and use all of the available power of the 400 ISL. The temps generally ran in the 180s and on the most severe grades it never went over 203.

On thing to keep in mind with the Freightliner instrumentation is that once the high temperature lamp comes on you are not yet in trouble. It'll probably kick in at 220 degrees. Think of it as a warning. Your temps can rise all the way up to 235 until the engine derates. But, once that light comes on you will need to manually gear down and switch off the dash air to keep it from reaching seriously higher. It will climb somewhat but generally you'll be over the grade before any significant temperature rise occurs. Ideally, if you see a steep grade coming you can anticipate the temp rise and gear down before the light comes on to minimize the temperature rise.
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:26 PM   #43
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RickO:
I never saw temperatures exceed 208 the entire trip. I probably could have been a bit more aggressive and let it climb a bit higher but saw no need. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rick's coach is an ISL with rear radiator and fixed fan (no clutch in '07). The majority of this thread is in regards to ISL's with side radiators. What Rick's comments tell me is for FL chassis the rear radiator design (if kept clean) is more efficient than the FL side radiator design when cooling the same engine even though both designs have the CAC stacked first.
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:41 AM   #44
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Cruzer, thanks for the info. Where in the operators manual does it give the 235 degree limit. I have searched for the parameters with no luck.

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Old 08-23-2007, 04:14 AM   #45
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I don't know that it's in the manual. But I do know that from past experience. I had an exhaust leak on a steep grade once that took it that high. It'll derate at 135 and log it in your ECM. You don't want to get that high.
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Old 08-23-2007, 05:43 AM   #46
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Cruzer - Mark we will be going to Yellowstone in late September, for the first time. Your post said that your transmission shifted itself automatically. Do you leave your transmission in the "economy" mode? Knowing that you are a "Yellowstone Tour Guide" could you direct me to a prior post of yours on what roads to take. Thanks, John
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:45 AM   #47
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I normally use Economy mode in the open areas but find it of little value in the 42QRP. The 400ISL just lopes along in 6th gear anyway and doesn't lose speed unless it's a steeper incline. Economy mode basically changes the auto-downshift RPM point to a lower RPM to keep the engine from downshifting and consuming more fuel. With the 42QRP/400ISL combination if it can't make it up the hill at the preset speed it'll drop significantly enough that it won't matter what mode you're in because it'll downshift soon enough anyway.

You are going to love the 2 speed jake brake in the mountains. I find myself rarely touching the brake pedal. Instead I just toggle the switch between low and high. Low speed generally works but if you pick up more speed you just switch to high and it drags the coach way down, too slow generally.

As to roads - my favorite way into Yellowstone is from Red Lodge, MT. Take the Beartooth Highway into the northwest entrance. If switchbacks aren
t your cup of tee you can always go out through Belfry and in the Chief Joseph Highway. There's a thread on that at This Link that describes it.

Then I exit via the east entrance and out through either 14 or 16, depending upon what I want to see on the way. However, in fall we tend to spend a few days at Grand Teton so we head south, then east through the Wind River range from the Tetons and take US-16 across the Bighorns.

Ther's some pics oin my site at www.rvcruzer.com if you want some ideas.

As to roads inside Yellowstone - ther's only one I'd stay off of. That's the road from Tower to Canyon. It goes over Dunraven Pass and climbs up and down Mount Washburn. The road gets narrow and there are some really tight turns that will make it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to stay in your lane. These curves are blind and some guy in a minivan always seems to be flying at you and hanging into your lane so it's probably more of a defensive driver thing than an issue with the length of your coach. If we enter via the Beartooths we head over to Gradiner for a few days, then down to Grizzly at West Yellowstone.

I've done Fishing Bridge and don't like it. We've reserved months in advance a site for a 40' coach and when we show up they say all they have are shorter spaces. Plus the sites are all very narrow and it gets difficult to extend slides without getting all scratched up on the trees (big shrubs actually) that separate the site. It's too bad. It's a great location in the mniddle of the action. If they'd only upgrade the sites to toady's standards it'd be in high demand.

If you want any more info, email me. We're probably digressing from the original subject of this thread here.
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Old 10-16-2007, 05:00 PM   #48
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I have had serious overheating problems with my Allegro Bus. Before I purchased the coach, I told the dealer that I needed a coach that could pull a horse trailer with three or four horses and the usual apparel. In July 2006, this overheating problem existed but all the vendors involved invested the effort to sell coaches regardless of capability and performance. Of course this overheating issue was not disclosed, and I paid good money for a coach that has not performed as requested and as represented. Of course the overheating problem can be controlled by turning the Mode button off (who uses it anyway) and down shifting. However, it cannot be eliminated. I have been through every single fix that Freightliner and Tiffin have requested--change the hydraulic pump, add fans to the radiator, flash the Freightliner warning system to change the warning temperature. When I first became aware of the overheating issue, all pretended they knew nothing until a phone tech disclosed the known problem.

Finally, after several attempts, Freightliner and Tiffin decided to meet me in LV, NV to fix my coach. Laughable, the fix was simply "flashing" the Freightliner computer to change the temperature activating the warning temperature light. To my knowledge, nothing was done to modify or change the way the engine cooling system worked. The flash fix was simply an effort to put the warning light out of site and out of mind. The flash fix did not solve the problem. When I went on the test drive after the "flash fix", horses loaded along with Freightliner and Tiffin, the Freightliner rep had excuses for the overheating regardless of the fix. "Driver error" he cried. Downshift!! This is pure BS!! At 1800 rpms, optimum speed and no loss of power (rpms and speed meeting in the middle) this coach should perform. If you drive the coach enough, you will find that the downshift will not occur when you need to maintain the rpms at 2000+. Instead, you must back off the accelerator, lose power and speed, increase temperature, then downshift to increase rpms. Of course, this may take two cycles depending on the grade and the gear. This coach is a disappointment on Baker grade, I-40 from Kingman to Flagstaff and to Denver. If it is loaded and hot, your friends in similar coaches will run by 20-30 miles per hour faster and 30 degrees cooler. Even Tiffen's rep admitted for the money you should not have those types of problems. However, on a multi vendor coach, they all want to blame the other! Happy camping!
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Old 10-16-2007, 05:44 PM   #49
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Roper2:
--snip--If you drive the coach enough, you will find that the downshift will not occur when you need to maintain the rpms at 2000+. Instead, you must back off the accelerator, lose power and speed, increase temperature, then downshift to increase rpms. --snip-- </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Right - the engine will be doing about 1500-1800 RPM going up a good grade while you watch your temperature climb.

After 30,000 miles of experience of all kinds of grades in all kinds of weather (heat), the problem manifests itself primarily in &gt;80 degree air temps. We usually run about 36,000 pounds GCVW so you might be significantly heavier.

Just a few days ago we were running 65-70 MPH, 6th gear, in 91 degree weather Westbound on I-10 pulling some long but not dramatic grades going into El Paso. Our temp gauge hit 222. I downshifted into 5th gear, RPM went to 2,000, and bam like magic the coolant temp came right down to ~204. We didn't lose speed and our fuel economy was little impacted. It was really a non-event.

Apparently and unfortunately like Cruzer said, our cooling system has a design issue. I can't change it or fix it unless I buy another coach and that is highly unlikely.

BTW - welcome to the forums
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Old 10-16-2007, 07:13 PM   #50
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I see that I am late to this subject but I may as well contribute another $.02. That way, we may be able to save up and buy a pot of coffee.

Our '98 C8.3 with the 3060 trans. running dino has similar issues at times. The Needles grades towards Barstow is a great example. After researching a bit with a local shop and Spartan and Cummins, the consensus is this.

Yes, keep the revs up around 2K or so if it climbs over 215 and downshift as necessary to control this. The mode button should only be used on long flat stretches or areas with minimal rapid elevation change. You can select with either mode to limit how many gears are available to the trans. but in mode-on, the trans will auto shift within that range. With mode-off, it shifts slower/revs a little higher prior to shifting.

This is to be used on steep grades or multiple hills. Personally, I drive with it off unless I am traveling flat for a while.

OAN, another maintenance item is that (esp. with rear radiator units) the CAC and radiator need to be checked and cleaned frequently and yes, the mis-placed vent hose is most often the culprit (mine is). I got about a 1/2# of crap out of mine at the last cleaning but there are still areas of the CAC that appear plugged.

I will be modifying my lower shroud section so it can be unbolted. I can then get to the few inches between the two cores, as well as a better shot at the CAC core for low pressure hose cleaning. Too strong a stream can crack the CAC core and damage the fins so be careful. Patience is of virtue here so take your time.

I will be doing this mod. soon and I'll post pics and opinions (I am full of those... ) soon.
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:52 AM   #51
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I see that I am late to this subject but I may as well contribute another $.02. That way, we may be able to save up and buy a pot of coffee. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The price of an Allegro Bus that doesn't perform as promised, can buy lot's of coffee. If they can't fix they should pay!
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Old 10-18-2007, 05:15 AM   #52
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Whoops, I see I was a bit dyslexic yesterday...

When I said "mode ON", I meant that I was taking it OUT of "Economy" mode. I tend to drive in economy mode on flat stretches that don't require the shifting. When on hills, I turn the "economy" mode OFF so that I can rev higher and manually upshift/downshift as required. I also restrict the max. gears available so the trans won't attempt to upshift when I don't want it.

I experiment with it everytime I drive so that I can get a better feel for how I should use the trans.

Any comments are welcome as I am learning about the DP thing all the time.
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Old 10-18-2007, 05:53 AM   #53
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I used to use the "economy" mode (light is on) when driving in city traffic, but I don't bother anymore. The mileage gain is probably insignificant anyway.

BTW - we are at Freightliner here in Tolleson (Phoenix), AZ for our M3 chassis service and just had a chat with the Oasis (RV section)service manager about the "overheating" issue. He immediately affirmed the need to keep the engine RPM at 2,000. The primary beneficiary of the engine speed is the hydraulic fan motor. The faster the engine spins, the faster the hydraulic fan motor turns (to a point.) The coolant is also being circulated faster. Asked him to check our fan to make sure it is operating properly.

BTW#2

We are scheduled for a hydraulic fluid cooler recall with our service. Never received any notification from Freightliner about this.
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Old 10-19-2007, 04:15 AM   #54
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Roper2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I see that I am late to this subject but I may as well contribute another $.02. That way, we may be able to save up and buy a pot of coffee. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The price of an Allegro Bus that doesn't perform as promised, can buy lot's of coffee. If they can't fix they should pay! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Freightliner tried to rectify the situation but face it - the system is under-engineered and they aren't about to redo all of the existing chassis so it was a no-win situation for everyone. Actually, the way FL handled it was the major reason that Bob Tiffin decided to build his own chassis. In the 2008 model year you can order an Allegro Bus with your choice of a Freightliner, Spartan, or Tiffin Powerglide chassis. The Powerglide was designed by the guy who engineered Alpine Coach's Peak chassis and has a number of upgraded features and the radiator design just happens to be 20% larger than the Freightliner.
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Old 10-30-2007, 05:42 PM   #55
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[quote]BTW#2

We are scheduled for a hydraulic fluid cooler recall with our service. Never received any notification from Freightliner about this.

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Freightliner analyzes the problem case-by-case before providing the fix. If your not pulling, you probably will not overheat. I had the hydrolic pump fixed for over one year and still have problems. Remeber I told them I was purchasing only to pull horses. I think class action would get results. Freightliner just does not want to pay the funds to cure the mistake and Tiffen doesen't care becasue it is not "their" issue. I think they forget who manufactured and offered the coach for sale!!! This is a terrible deal for the consumers. As you can tell I am not happy at all!!!

On a new note, I was traveling from lv, nv to Reno when the fuel line broke. At midnight I was losing lots of fuel under high presure and could not tell. Finally, when a car's lights hit the back of the coach, I could see the evaporation from the fuel hitting the exhaust and the engine. (I thought I was on fire). Kids asleep in the coach and horses attaced. I had to pull over and litterally evacuate the coach . . . kids . . . horeses and the few things we could grab. Nobody seemed to care that I was stranded. I paid $390.00 to have an independent fix because Freightliner had a limit on towing and Cummins has no towing. Now try to figure out how to get reimbursed. NOBODY CARES. They just want your money and then blame on each other. This is bs.
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Old 10-31-2007, 06:32 AM   #56
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Roper2, We had a lift pump failure on an 05 Journey back in August of 06 in Whitehorse, Yukon. The tow bill alone was 1900 Dollars cdn, cummins paid the entire tow bill and repair.

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Old 10-31-2007, 10:23 AM   #57
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I have also recently found out that the surge tank on the radiator is a weak link in the system so keep and eye on it for seepage around the inlet and the overflow.
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