Assistance Please with Severe Undercarriage Rust & Corrosion on New 2005 Coach - Page 4

Radarr · 01-06-2006, 06:23 AM

If that is a direct copy, word for word of the PDI the dealer has to do, I think the dealer has an out, by it not being specific in mentioning power washing the chassis.

I can tell you from our personal experience, that when we viewed motorhomes at this dealers facility, they came straight from the manufacture. It surprised us as to the number of defects we saw on brand new coaches that weren't corrected before they put them on display. I would expect, that any quality dealership would want to put their best foot forward and only display products that were actually ready for delivery with all the imperfections corrected. Sure the customer will have a punch list, but thats normally after a fine tooth inspection.

We've seen sliding doors broken, drawer slide broke, broken mirrors, molding that fell off, hanging lights and ect. If our Ford Dealer at home displayed their products in that fashion, they would be out of business.

It all comes down to this "you have one time to make a 1st impression". The impression we got, was that the dealer was in too much of hurry to sell the product and not interested in it being PDI'd before it was put on display.

radarr

"007" · 01-06-2006, 07:37 AM

radarr, hit the nail on the head

"you have one time to make a 1st impression".

After we looked with a salesman at the KS we now own, finding leaking fluid in base plate of jack before entering coach, sliding door off track in rear bath,three buckled tiles in bathroom, broken window shade in bedroom, dirt on leather furniture. I asked salesman how long coach has been on lot, he said Oct of following yr this was now June. And you thought you could sell the coach with these defects.

He assured me everything would be taken care of , where have we heard that before.

After owning 5 class A's an 7 TT I new what I can do to have the coach in top shape with a little work on my part.

People new to RVing will be in all sorts of trouble

if they find themselfs with problems.
The list is very impressive I wonder who really follows thru with every single item, MFG?,dealer? or the new owner.

I don't think in my life time we will ever see the RV industry

as responsible as a car dealer.
They can pass the blame around to everyone else its not their problem.

Its thru FORUMS as this one where we can find answers that saves us from making mistakes that will hit our pockets.
The only problem is some people arrive to late or never realize we exist.

"007"

Savannah · 01-06-2006, 08:04 AM

I wonder how much of the interior defects are in fact caused by people and their kids tromping thru yanking and tugging on stuff. A dealer fixes then the next little darling comes along. Finally dealers say we'll wait til the coach is sold and then "clean" it up.

I do realize that the exterior problems can't be blamed on the general public though.

tonigil · 01-06-2006, 08:18 AM

Savannah,
I do agree with you in part, about the interior problems may have been caused by not just children but adults also. Also, that a lot of the little things can be picked up when doing the PDI. However, How are we supposed to know if the Mfg/dealer did an undercoat when we have paid for it. Do we have to treat these idiots like children?
Did you brush your teeth?
Did you do the Undercoating I paid for?
Did you make your bed?
Did you wash the undercarriage upon delivery?
Did you do your homework?
Did you make sure that my windshield won't fall out?
Do I have to come there?
Do I have to go under the RV and check for myself?
This is the only industry that we have to check, recheck and threaten to get things done.
If there was some punishment, like go to your room.
Or, You will have to pay for your errors or stupidity. When you hit them in the pocket is when they wake up. Unfortunately for us. They have more money to play with.
I know one thing that will work.....
The RV Protection Act Proposal
Toni

edgray · 01-06-2006, 08:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is the only industry that we have to check, recheck and threaten to get things done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
TONIGIL: obviously, you have no experience with FEMA

IF you ever hear the words "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you" be VERY afraid !! ED

tonigil · 01-06-2006, 09:06 AM

I think you may be right about FEMA. As a matter of fact, I know you are right. But, I was talking about the purchasing consumer. And I was talking about a Product. I know that our government has many flaws but you know what? I would still rather be here in America to be able to type this and any comments or opinions I have without repercussions.
At least with all of the flaws we are free to fight for our rights legally. We also have the right to get what we paid for. In the product industry, as I said, this stinks. This industry fails its customers and drags them down until they cry Uncle. They have the money and they have the power. They know it. That is why many of our Seniors have given up on their rights with these Mfg. They are either too sick or tired of fighting so they lose thousands of dollars to get rid of their LEMONS through a trade. There is too much stress involved in the fight for what they deserve.
That is not to say that there are young people also being robbed of their rights also. It is just that the younger rvers have more energy to accomplish resolve. But, they too are getting screwed because they don't have the time, due to family and work schedules and money to fight these big corporations.
Thank you,
Toni

New RV Proposal for Protection

The Shadow · 01-06-2006, 09:17 AM

He doesn't have an out as the requirement to power wash when delivered in winter stems from Freightliner as well. When I sent photos to Winnie almost a year ago now they were forwarded to Freightliner. Winnie sent me the following note:

"Freightliner feels the surface rust was caused by road salts and have placed the responsibility upon the RV dealer for not performing the proper procedures when they received the motor home."

Now, what is the proper procedure? Well, on that "other" forum a Winnie products dealer (not identified to the participants as a dealer) made the following comments in a thread on rust:

"Winnebago dealers are required by Winnie to wash the underside of any unit that they receive during the winter months. Being as Forest City can be a rather snowy area in January, and that snow may have to have been driven through for a few hundred miles before it got to Texas, and that snow covered roads are generally salted to melt the snow to make the driving conditions safer, ROAD SALT would have been the cause of your problems, and solely the responsibility of the dealer."

Vectra rust

As to signing the PDI form, I doubt that would mean much in that one cannot be expected to check all of these items before delivery. From my experience PDI means removing the stickers and washing the unit.

Now, something I've not said. When I took my MH into the dealer on returning from Florida the dealer indicated that it would not be doing anything about the rust. I informed Winnie of the dealer's decision and added that they should not worry about this issue any more as I'd let the Judge decide if they have to do anything. Well, a month later (the dealer had the MH for 2 months to do 17 hours of work) I was notified by Winnie that the dealer and Winnie shared the cost of having an independent party come in to clean up the rust and undercoat the MH.

Did they do a good job? Since the entire undercarriage (with one exception) was coated with a gooey black substance I really don't know what, if anything, they did before applying the undercoating. They missed one air tank completely - not touched at all and given how rusty it was it sure stood out when I rolled underneath for a look.

This effort by Winnie left me with an open mind as to purchasing their products in the future. Did my decision to inform Winnie that I'd take the matter to the courts influence the change in the dealer's original decision to do nothing about the rust? I think it did. I had enough documentation that I believe I would have won the case (and in Canada you can ask the court for your costs). I don't think Winnie would have wanted to be on the losing side of an action of this nature (which would have been brought againt the dealer, Winne AND Freightliner).

When we decided to change MHs we looked at Journeys and Vectras but saw nothing that appealed to us. When we opened the battery bay on new units we saw filth and rust and that didn't encourage us. The floorplans were not great for 3 people (most aren't - but the one we got is outstanding in this regard).

Since then, I have to say the problems I've seen reported by Winnie owners has made me even more leery of Winnie quality control than I was with the Journey (e.g., floor tiles buckled 3 times and after the third fix they started coming up again). Frankly, Winnie has to make a major improvement in its quality before I'd even look at one of its products again. HR is not a quality standout for sure (I think Larry, Curly and Moe are doing the QC work for all of them), but we've had far fewer problems (and generally much less significant problems) than we had with our Journey.

Winnie and LD should get off their butts and resolve this particular problem immediately. If they don't think it is hurting their businesses, they are dreaming in technicolor.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Radarr:
If that is a direct copy, word for word of the PDI the dealer has to do, I think the dealer has an out, by it not being specific in mentioning power washing the chassis.

I can tell you from our personal experience, that when we viewed motorhomes at this dealers facility, they came straight from the manufacture. It surprised us as to the number of defects we saw on brand new coaches that weren't corrected before they put them on display. I would expect, that any quality dealership would want to put their best foot forward and only display products that were actually ready for delivery with all the imperfections corrected. Sure the customer will have a punch list, but thats normally after a fine tooth inspection.

We've seen sliding doors broken, drawer slide broke, broken mirrors, molding that fell off, hanging lights and ect. If our Ford Dealer at home displayed their products in that fashion, they would be out of business.

It all comes down to this "you have one time to make a 1st impression". The impression we got, was that the dealer was in too much of hurry to sell the product and not interested in it being PDI'd before it was put on display.

radarr </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

tonigil · 01-06-2006, 09:56 AM

I know that this is not a laughing matter. But, Even though they are probably factual, I couldn't stop laughing at your comments....
AND
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think Larry, Curly and Moe are doing the QC work for all of them </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Winnie and LD should get off their butts and resolve this particular problem immediately. If they don't think it is hurting their businesses, they are dreaming in technicolor.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Toni

rebelsbeach · 01-06-2006, 12:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tonigil:
Also, that a lot of the little things can be picked up when doing the PDI. However, How are we supposed to know if the Mfg/dealer did an undercoat when we have paid for it.
Toni </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Toni,you seem to contradict yourself when you say "there are a lot of little things than can be picked up when doing the PDI,but then come right back and say "How are we supposed to know if the dealer/mfg did an undercoat when we paid for it?

When I picked up my coach this week,I already had a copy of the option spec sheet I filled out and I made sure every one of them was there.
On my spec sheet,Item 24W is undercoat.
I got my big old hindparts under the coach and checked for it.

When I leave Sam's Club THEY check and make sure I got everything....(ok they're really checking to see I ONLY got what I paid for..)

My point is that,whatever you buy,whereever you buy it,you need to check.

I wrote a check to that dealer for over $220,000 dollars....You'd better believe I'm going to make sure it's right,especially given the rust debacle that's been on these forums.

rg · 01-06-2006, 01:43 PM

I have been following this on every BB and I think the last statement applies:

"I wrote a check to that dealer for over $220,000 dollars....You'd better believe I'm going to make sure it's right,especially given the rust debacle that's been on these forums."

Not saying the transport caused it or some where between the dealer and travels that the coach made leaving the dealer. At that level of money transaction I am all over it!

In the case of a law suit I really believe the average person would not win. It is not based on what ever case you think you have but the amount of money you would have to spend to get minimul return. I believe the dealer or Winny stepping up for repair (maybe not in your mind) shows responsibility. It may not be what you think you deserve. But there are to many hidden factors. I do have a question was the under coating a option? When I purchased from Lazy Days I asked about under coating and it was an option. The internet is hard to really understand a person. I still believe in face to face.

tonigil · 01-06-2006, 01:52 PM

rebelsbeach,
I agree with you NOW that we are aware of this. What I meant to say was up until we became aware, thanks to these forums and the posters, I never even gave it a thought. We bought 3 motor homes so far and we never gave it a thought to check the undercoating. Now that I am aware, of course I would have that checked as part of my PDI. I can't and neither can my husband crawl under the unit. But, for **** sure, you better believe I will have someone check for us from now on. As soon as I read these posts, I had someone crawl under to check our unit. I only hope that the Mfg and/or dealer puts this one to bed by giving our good RV friend a new unit. I can't believe that they are dragging their feet on this one. They have to know how ticked off we are at this continuous delay in their actions. BBK3 bought a new unit. That is what he paid for. He did not sign on the dotted line for a reconstructed MH. If that were the case, he could have save some big buck on a second had reconstructed MH.
Toni

rebelsbeach · 01-06-2006, 02:06 PM

Toni,

I'm not in any position to ask or even suggest a course of action,other than one that is acceptable to all parties involved.

I'm not sure you,me or anyone else other than bbk,have the "right" to offer those solutions.

I'm reminded of a story I heard as a youngster,where you gather eight or nine folks in a circle and the first person tells the person to his right a sentence....
By the time the sentence gets back to the start,it's nowhere close to what it was....

Can you imagine the effect the internet has??

I know I've read this story on AT LEAST two other rv forums....

Tom N · 01-06-2006, 05:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So we have a clear case of the dealer not following Winnebago protocals for a winter delivery. I may not have this 100% correct but it is my understanding that it is required by Winnebago that a Dealer must immediatly pressure wash the undercarriage of a new coach upon delivery during the winter months.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Winnebago has no requirement for the dealer to pressure wash the underside of the coach. Winnebago's dealer requirements are listing in the dealer PDI that I posted and that list was for 2005. This PDI is for the dealer to preform and not the PDI that the dealer goes through with the purchaser.

The Shadow · 01-06-2006, 05:11 PM

Tom, did you read my comments? IMO you are WRONG. Please note the comments by a Winnie dealer and Freightliner.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom N:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So we have a clear case of the dealer not following Winnebago protocals for a winter delivery. I may not have this 100% correct but it is my understanding that it is required by Winnebago that a Dealer must immediatly pressure wash the undercarriage of a new coach upon delivery during the winter months.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Winnebago has no requirement for the dealer to pressure wash the underside of the coach. Winnebago's dealer requirements are listing in the dealer PDI that I posted and that list was for 2005. This PDI is for the dealer to preform and not the PDI that the dealer goes through with the purchaser. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

rebelsbeach · 01-06-2006, 05:57 PM

Not sure what else the gallery can offer this forum,as it's turned into more conjecture than the original issue.

The issue has been well publicized,now let's hope that between receiving the electrolysis results and continuing the process of negotiations,this can be solved in a fashion that suits all the parties involved.

I'm hoping we all can take a breath and wait for that resolution.

Tom N · 01-06-2006, 06:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Tom, did you read my comments? IMO you are WRONG. Please note the comments by a Winnie dealer and Freightliner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give me your email address and I'll email your Winnebago's dealer requirements documenting that the dealer is not required to pressure wash the chassis of a motorhome.

Freightliner and your dealer are just "passing the buck".

Give me your address please.

The Shadow · 01-06-2006, 07:00 PM

I HAVE the Winnie doc in PDF format, I don't need the same thing again. Note that I provided a reference to a Winnie Dealer and his statement. Are you telling us you know MORE than the Winnie dealer? FYI this is NOT a PDI issue - it is a WINTER DELIVERY PROCEDURE. Kapish?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom N:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Tom, did you read my comments? IMO you are WRONG. Please note the comments by a Winnie dealer and Freightliner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give me your email address and I'll email your Winnebago's dealer requirements documenting that the dealer is not required to pressure wash the chassis of a motorhome.

Freightliner and your dealer are just "passing the buck".

Give me your address please. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom N · 01-07-2006, 06:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dleslie125:
As to signing the PDI form, I doubt that would mean much in that one cannot be expected to check all of these items before delivery. From my experience PDI means removing the stickers and washing the unit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Signing the PDI form by the customer does not certify that the customer checked all the PDI items. The customer's signature certifies that he has been given the warranty documents for the vehicle prior to sale and has been instructed in the use of the vehicle.

THe DEALERS signature certifies that the dealer has inspected, road tested, safetly checked and that adjustments were performed in accordance with the requirements of WInnebago's PDI requirements (this document does not state that the undercarraige has to be washed in the winter). For conformation of the above review the Delaer Certification and Customer Certification signature areas on your PDI requirements form.

You stated that both WInnebago and Freightliner require the dealer to pressure wash the undercarraiage in the winter. Have Freightliner and/or Winnebago supply this document to you and take it to your attorney. To the best of my knowledge there is no such document and if this winter procedure was a PDI requirement it would be on the PDI sign off sheet where the dealer's signature certifies that the PDI was completed by his dealership.

The Shadow · 01-07-2006, 02:08 PM

Tom, we seem to have a communication problem and I don't think it is at my end.

Why would I take this document to my attorney? If you paid attention you will note that they "fixed" my rust problem (with the exception of one air tank) and I traded the MH. It was sold in four days.

When you say "to the best of my knowledge" you might find that your knowledge in this area, is in fact, incomplete. FYI, soon after I noticed the extreme rust (2 days after we took delivery) I mentioned it to a Freightliner rep when I called their help desk to inquire about another aspect of the chassis. He immediately said that when a MH is delivered in the winter the dealer is required to power wash the undercarriage.

So, if you chose to believe otherwise, that is your right, even if you are wrong.

bbk3 · 01-27-2006, 04:39 AM

We would like to express our sincere appreciation to all the folks on the forum who have offered their assistance and who have shown their support for us in so many ways both on and off line.

We have amicably reached an acceptable agreement that will allow us to put this situation behind us. We grateful for all of the time spent on our behalf.

Thank you all again.

BBK3